by Josie Gagliano
Better Man is the highly anticipated musical biopic of pop star Robbie Williams, an encore from Australian director Michael Gracey to his beloved debut smash The Greatest Showman, made in Melbourne and starring Jonno Davies as Williams, but as a monkey…
We spoke with Gracey and Davies on the day after the film’s Melbourne premiere.
“It was great, it was like a homecoming,” says Davies of the premiere. “The vast majority of the crew were Australian, so it was like the band were getting back together, and it was an awesome response. And Robbie is obviously well loved over here as well, and so people knew his story and enjoy his music, and honestly, when people started singing ‘Rock DJ’ in the auditorium, it was the best feeling, because that’s the atmosphere that we want to create with that piece. So, to hear it happening in real time, it’s such a joy.”
What was the thought process behind that scene and, using that song as a pivotal moment in the movie?
Michael: “It is meant to be a breakout moment of Rob’s fantasy, dreaming about what it means to sign a record deal. It’s the only scene in the entire film where he’s not being tormented by his thoughts, it’s just pure euphoria. And in his imagination, he’s front man of the band, which he’s not [laughs], but that’s how he sees it, and they go from being nobodies, all the way through to being the biggest thing in Europe, with everyone chasing them down the street. It’s a great visual evolution, because along the way, you also see them in very iconic Take That outfits, which pinpoint different eras and different moments of the band. And so, the song choice was like, ‘what’s a real banger that can just elevate this musical moment in Rob’s head, that is just going to keep you smiling the whole time’ … and you need that too, because… you know, things get dark [laughs].
“And you really need to remember back to that time when the dream was pure and perfect. That’s life, right? Life can be much harder, and much more difficult, and is a struggle, and is full of the light and the dark.
“We just wanted to have this moment of pure light and joy before we enter into some of the more dark moments.”
Absolutely, you did that incredibly well, and you cannot miss a beat of the movie, you’re watching every single second and every moment.
Michael: “It’s definitely the biggest dance number I’ve ever had to pull off. It’s going to be very hard to top.”
We’ve never seen a list of credits so long. It really is a cast of thousands.
Michael: “Yeah, literally! Thousands of people came together to make this film, and it is actually a credit to Australia for supporting this film, and bringing a film of this scale to Australia.
“Wētā [Workshop], who opened up a studio here in Melbourne to do this film – and that studio is still here in Melbourne, and it is growing every single year; so the fact that Wētā now has an Australian full-time office after this film is something I’m incredibly proud of.
“That’s what great films do… they leave behind these facilities and infrastructure so that other filmmakers can take advantage of it, and for me coming from a background in visual effects and in animation, the idea of getting to work on the biggest films on the planet, but not have to leave Melbourne is phenomenal.
“We had we had scenes in this film with 2000 extras… We recreated concerts… we were very fortunate in that we had Robbie who can fill Rod Laver Arena like that [clicks fingers]. And so, we had two nights at Rod Laver Arena, we had two nights at Royal Albert Hall in London, but again, all that was for the actual hall itself, and the crowd.
“The scene at the end of the film, and the stage, and everyone on the floor, was all shot in Studio 6 here in Melbourne at Docklands.
“That’s just seamless, no one picks the fact that the stage and the floor of Royal Albert Hall was all shot in Melbourne.
“The film is the tribute to all of these people coming together and making it their passion piece. It’s the work of thousands of people, and it’s some of the best work that they’ve ever created in their career. And that’s not me saying it, that’s them saying it.”
Jonno, tell us about the first meet up with Robbie, what happened, where were you…
Jonno: “I was the last person thing to be cast in the film, so we had a lot of ground to cover in very little time. That’s not only rehearsing the scenes, but also getting accustomed to the technology. So, the suit, the helmet, the camera, any kind of last-minute research I could pop in, in terms of physicality, etc.
“And the first thing we shot was ‘My Way’, the finale of the film, the pinnacle, the emotional scene… you know, a nice, easy warm up [laughs].
“And although I don’t sing in the movie, that’s of course Rob, I did sing live. You wouldn’t be able to generate what’s needed if I was lip synching, and also because there’s so much detail from Wētā, you’d be able to see it in my throat if I wasn’t singing.
“I like a good shower song, but I’m not a professional singer. So, I’m about to sing ‘My Way’ for the first time at this massive Studio 6, in front of about 300 extras, Michael Gracey, I’m already kind of thinking, ‘Oh God, am I actually doing this job, have I really been given this task’.
“I’m about to open my mouth, boom… in walks Mr R Williams himself, kind of struts in as he does, plonks himself in the front row, and kind of ‘man spreads’, and is a bit like, ‘Go on then, entertain me’.
“Which I try, and I think I fail, to be honest… just sheer panic, and I remember he came up on stage, and he was like, “you just need to enjoy it more, mate’, and which… although is true… didn’t quite fit the scene, but I think he was right, and you know, it was a case of: ‘oh, he’s just a normal person actually, he’s just a normal person I can speak to’. I’ve not got to worry about constantly impressing… as soon as you’re trying to work by ticking other people’s boxes, you’re never going to get that authenticity, and you’re never going to be able to create the work that you want to do and be proud of.
“What was lovely about the interaction with Robbie was that we had that, and we then had a lovely sit down conversation where I got to pick his brain a little bit more about his history, and we really did have to go back in time, because it’s all well and good meeting the person you’re playing… but he’s 20 years older than where we leave him in the story. He’s had kids, he’s been married, he’s not on drugs anymore, you know… it’s a whole different person.
“So, we really had to kind of go back in time and deep dive into that. But then, he very graciously said to us, ‘Okay, go do your thing’. It wasn’t like having someone there on-set saying, ‘oh I wouldn’t say it like that’, or ‘it happened differently’.
“He trusted us to tell his story, and that was a real blessing. It meant that we felt confident in our approach, it allowed us to create a dynamic, and a shorthand between each other, and Simon [Gleeson], one of the other writers as well, to create our version of Rob’s story.”
We have read that you used Robbie’s eyes for his character. Tell us more about that, how that all evolved, how you made that happen.
Jonno: “Yeah, we wanted to make sure there were some idiosyncrasies in there, that Rob himself or his fans could certainly recognise when you saw it. He has a very loyal fan base, so we wanted to make sure there was stuff for them. We’re not just bringing in a new market, we’re also celebrating the market that’s already there. Robbie’s eyes: how it works is… I’m doing the acting with my eyes, but they’ve brought Robbie in with a very detailed, high-resolution scan, so that you could put Rob’s eyes on top of mine essentially. So, they’re Rob’s eyes looking back at you the whole time. You’re deep diving into his soul. And then you add the details that Wētā put in. The texture of the skin changing, the way that when he’s in these hedonistic binges, he’s almost like clay. You can almost smell him at times, you can smell the night, the sweat that goes upside down before ‘Let Me Entertain You’, the details of the tattoos and the fur, it’s remarkable what they’re able to do.”
Michael, how did you and Robbie come up with the concept of the monkey.
Michael: “I wouldn’t have chosen to make a musical biopic about Robbie Williams. There are just other artists I would have chosen before. Like Stevie Wonder [laughs].
“It really came from… Rob helped me out on The Greatest Showman when Hugh [Jackman], needed convincing about the music. Rob did an amazing video message for Hugh, and it sort of changed the course of history for that film. And then, when I would catch up with him socially after that, as you do when you’re meeting someone for the first time, they ask you stories about your life, and you ask them stories about their life, and I just really enjoyed the way he would tell his story.
“As a filmmaker, so often you would just grab your phone and hit record and talk with someone when you’re engaged with their narrative. It might not even be them telling their story about their life, it could just be them telling a story about something they’ve heard. But the wonderful thing about Rob was not only did I enjoy the relationship that he had with his Nan, I love the relationship he has with his dad. We all, in some way, want our parents’ approval, and I was just really taken with the story, and then I love the way in which he told it.
“It’s not just the telling of the story, it’s how he tells it, and at that point I just wanted to record him telling his life story, and it wasn’t for a film. It was just… I literally said to him, ‘It might just be for something for you to listen to in a nursing home one day’. That was my pitch.
“Knowing that he had a recording studio at his house, I would just go over whenever I was in LA, and we would sit and chat, and those recordings over the course of a year and a half became the basis for the first draft of the film, but the intention never was to make a film. The more recordings I did, and the more I started re-ordering them, and listening to them like a radio play, the more I thought: ‘Actually, there’s a really amazing film in this’. And then I could see on top of that, having him be a monkey was really just trying to find a creative way into the narrative, and knowing that I wanted to explore both his interior and his exterior life, I wanted a device that would allow me to step between those two, somewhat seamlessly.
“A musical is already heightened, people are breaking into song… add a monkey on top of that, you’re into quite a theatrical world. So, it does allow you to be driving along one moment, and then the whole world turns red. And then next thing, you’re underwater, and next thing, we’re being mobbed by paparazzi underwater, and all of this is a visual interpretation of what he was feeling. But at which point do you step from reality into fantasy… those lines are kind of blurred.”
What was your reaction, Jonno, when you watched the film in its entirety?
Jonno: “I think I’ve watched it five times, it still blows my mind. Michael said to me very early on, when I got the role, to not worry about the monkey, not worry about the finished product, and treat this like any other role. ‘There are the animators talented enough to make your work translate, so you don’t need to blow up your performance, you don’t need to overplay, even though we’re in this heightened world, play it as practically as you can’.
The Wētā guys were saying that it was having the naturalistic performance that gave them the scope to really create this nuanced monkey. So then to see it, to see myself in that monkey… because that’s another thing – you never know, when you see the final product, you give everything and then it’s down to the editors, it’s down to Michael, it’s down to the animators to decide what they use.
“It was truly humbling to see myself in all of it, and it was really quite emotional because you’re matching this beautiful film, that’s got music driving it throughout, and the musicality of this film is so beautifully manipulative, it sends you on this rollercoaster, mixed with the kind of sensory memory and emotional memory, and I was looking at scenes, going: ‘I remember where we were 2½ years ago. I remember how that felt doing it, I remember the struggle we had throughout that shoot day. The relief we felt when we’ve got that scene….’
And also, a sense of relief, I guess, because I’ve been telling people I’m playing him as a monkey, and people go: ‘What do you mean?’ And I go, ‘Well I don’t really know what I mean, because I don’t know!’
“But to see it be done with such beautiful artistry, and the fact that I think you buy into this monkey so early on… The idea of having the child [young Robbie] is a genius stroke… straight away, we empathise with this baby. We’re going, ‘no matter what you do, for the rest of your life, we’re on your side’.
“I think it just creates this unique way of storytelling, and to be the person that’s had the privilege to kind of be at the helm of it… it’s been an honour.”
We want to ask you both about that actual ‘monkey on your back’… Michael, you show all the different versions of the monkeys around us, around Robbie, either holding us back, or even warning us. And one of the last scenes where Robbie fights them all off. Do you think we all have that, those background voices, your own self-doubters, your own self-reflection monkeys?
Jonno: “Certainly. I think we all have that. I think some are just more close to the surface than others, and some of them have more powerful words of persuasion than others.
“I think mental health is obviously way more documented now than it would have been in the peak of Robbie’s career. I think before, it would have been: ‘just take a happy pill, and get on stage’.
“Now, we have obviously more understanding of what it means to have mental health, and not have mental health.
“I think imposter syndrome… you would really struggle to find any creative person that doesn’t have it. I certainly do. When I got this job, it was a very brief moment of excitement, and then: ‘Oh my God, I’m gonna get found out, they’re going to realise I’m crap, they’re going to realise that no I’m not the person for this role’. Which is very much what Rob feels throughout; you have this dream, his dream is Knebworth, as soon as you establish it, you then realise that you have to go through with it, and if not, you’re a failure… and if not, you’re a failure to yourself, to your loved ones.
“But I think that self-doubt also just shows how much we care as people. We care for our own dreams, but we also care for others, and living up to expectations of others, and I think that’s really part of Rob’s story in this. How he wants to meet the expectations of his dad, he’s constantly seeking approval.
“He wants to be the person that his Nan sees him as, which he finds would be difficult to stay true to. And then Nicole… Nicole provides him with this lifeline of light and love and acceptance, and again… he realises that he isn’t worthy of her, and so essentially, he destroys himself, and he self-sabotages to the point where she can no longer put up with it. And I think a lot of people connect to at least a fragment of that, and that’s something that’s really powerful about this film, in that there’s something for everyone to connect to.”
Michael: “I think everyone has those voices in their head. There’s no question, it’s to what degree. I think the mental health issues that Rob faced back then was confined quite a bit to people who were in the public eye. Now with social media I think that desire for approval from others, and how you judge your own self-worth is more common than it ever has been. So, those voices are much more present now than they were. There’s a comment Rob said which is actually a line I wish we put in the film, but it was when we were well into production… he just said… ‘you know, there are a lot of things about not placing your self-worth in the hands of others…’ but he said it so succinctly, just one line. He said: ‘If you don’t love me, neither do I’.
“And I thought, ‘oooh!’ That is just such a strong statement, and it is such a strong motivator for Rob… and it’s such a dangerous motivator.
“So, in terms of those voices, I think they’re very present for everyone… to what degree and how much we let them dictate our life, and our actions is… can be a day to day battle… and people deal with them in different ways. It’s very interesting watching Rob try to ignore those voices early on in his career, trying to numb those voices through self-medicating, alcohol, and drugs.
“And then, by the time he gets to Knebworth, he’s literally fighting for his life against those voices. And Royal Albert Hall is the place where he makes peace with them.
“That’s not to say that they go away, because they don’t. I think that was a really, really important message of the film: that those voices do not go away. He still has those same voices in his head, and there’s a reason why there’s a website at the end of the film, because hopefully the film allows people to have a dialogue about their own mental health issues. And if they’re not comfortable having that dialogue with their friends or their family, we have to present somewhere else where they can get help. Because like I said, I don’t think this is unique just to Rob’s story, and I think that it is bigger issue now than it probably ever has been.”
Having seen and been part of the film, where is Robbie at now, and what does he think about this final product, this legacy, because it really is a legacy piece…
Michael: “I know he loves it… it took quite a few times for him to watch it before he could enjoy it. I think the first time he watched it, he was just like… watching someone shellshocked [laughs].
“Which is understandable. Once you sign off on words on a script, it’s another thing to see it projected, large, in a cinema.”
“But I think he’s very appreciative of the film, of the people who came together to realise it, and the talent that told his story in in such a bold way.
“From the conversations that I’ve had, he’s in awe of Jonno’s performance. He just cannot believe the way in which Jonno has brought him to life on the big screen. He’s very lucky [laughs].”
Jonno: “He’s a lucky guy, what can I say! [laughs]. One thing I would add is that there are a few scenes in there which I think have been really beneficial for Rob in terms of conversations that he’s always wished he could have had with his dad.
“And to have that in this timeless infinite piece of film now, I think is really, really useful for him…”
Can you tell us about Raechelle Banno as Nicole Appleton?
Michael: Rob was very protective of the Nicole Appleton part of the story, and he said to me, ‘you can tell every part of my story except the part with Nicole. You can’t tell any of that unless you have her approval’. He’s very protective of that part of his life with Nicole, and what the two of them went through. And rightfully so, we shouldn’t be telling that part of anyone’s story because it’s deeply personal, unless Nicole was on board. And she was, and I went and met with her, and she read the script, and she watched a lot of the dance rehearsals, and she was incredibly supportive of telling that story. But you also fall in love with her in about three minutes… she’s just that person. And it was really hard in casting Nicole, to find that person that you just immediately fall in love with.
“And Raechelle was that person. But we cast her purely on the dramatic scenes, and we had no idea if she could dance or not. But I already was so convinced that she was our Nicole, and she had that had amazing quality of just… having the camera fall in love with her, that I said to Ashley [Wallen] the choreographer: ‘I don’t care if she can’t dance…”. Because she said she did ballet up until 13, and I was like, that doesn’t mean anything… Knowing what we wanted to do in terms of choreography.
“And so, I just said to Ashley, ‘I don’t know if this girl can dance, but you just have to make her dance… like, I don’t care what you have to do, you have to make her look like she can dance.
“And he called up within minutes, and he was like: ‘she can dance’.”
Jonno: “She can dance!”
Better Man is in cinemas Boxing Day 2024
