by James Mottram
Given you did Only Lovers Left Alive, you must have a profound love of the horror genre.
No. In fact, I’m not a big horror fanatic. I’m a film fanatic, so all genres are interesting to me. I grew up with the universal Dracula and Frankenstein movies. Then, I found earlier movies, Bela Lugosi, White Zombie, and these things. There are contemporary horror directors that I like very much, certainly Sam Raimi. I love the Evil Dead movies. He found a balance with comedy and scary shit. I like Wes Craven, some of his films. Certainly, John Carpenter. In Europe, Mario Bava and Dario Argento, some of the Roger Corman films. It’s not my big thing. Among horror films, zombies are my least favourite. I’ve never seen The Walking Dead, for example. I’m not a zombie guy, I’m more of a vampire guy. There are great zombie movies. Obviously, Romero’s the master of the post-modern zombie.
Dawn of the Dead was always about consumerism. You’re taking it somewhat further here…
Well, not really, just updating it. Certainly, Night of the Living Dead has social commentary in it, though not particularly intended by Romero, but it’s in the film. Vampires are so sophisticated, elegant, and sexual in a way. They can change into a bat or a wolf. They’re very highly intelligent, in order to survive. They can only be out at night, and they have to get victims for blood. Zombies are just dumb-ass vessels walking around. They’re just stupid entities. They’re just the undead coming back, so they’re not interesting to me. But, it’s such a loaded metaphor that I couldn’t resist … It’s really Tilda Swinton’s fault, let’s blame her. After Only Lovers Left Alive, which is really a love story more than a vampire film for me, but they always talk about the mortals being zombies. All the mortals, to them, are zombies. They’re another lesser level of creature. For a few years after that, Tilda’s always, ‘Well, when are you going to make the zombie film, a film about the zombies?’ ‘Tilda, we don’t like the zombies. Remember?’ She said, ‘I think you could do something with that.’ So, it’s partly her fault.
Is the casting, the samurai sword and other bits in the film references to your own filmography?
No, not at all. I have actors that I’ve worked with before, but I’m not referencing any other films, nor am I ever. I don’t even see my previous films, once I’ve seen them with a paying audience that doesn’t know I’m there, which, I like to do when the film gets released. Then, oh man, never, ever again. If I have to bump the film up to a new digital format or something, okay, take the sound off first. I’ll do the picture, but no sound. Then I’ll do the sound. Or, in the old days with reels, put the reels out of order. Don’t show me the thing in order. I don’t want to see them ever again. As Godard said, every filmmaker just makes the same film over and over, in a variation. Well, maybe that’s true. I don’t know. Are there themes in all my films? I’m sure there are. I’m not consciously trying to reference them, ever…. Well, in tiny ways, I am. In this film, I tried to amuse myself with the names of the characters.
Peterson is one example.
Peterson is Paterson. Bill Murray was Don Johnson in Broken Flowers. Now, he’s Cliff Robertson. Rosie Perez is Posie Juarez. Yes, there’s jokes in here… Little things, but I’m not trying to think about my previous films in that way. Eszter Balint, who was in Stranger Than Paradise, she was 17, I hadn’t worked with her since, but we’ve been friends always. Of course, there are connections like that. You have to know, anything you ask me, I am staunchly protective of my intuition, which is my strength as a filmmaker and a musician. I am anti-analytical. Self-analysis of my work, or analysing, ‘What does it mean? Why did you do it?’, I protect myself from that. That’s harmful to my strength. That’s not my strength. If you asked me what’d something mean, why did you do it? I don’t know. I have no idea. I don’t want to know. I just want to do the next thing.
You once said that you spent so many hours, when you were a child, watching horror and science fiction movies. At some point, you thought that this is what cinema is about. It’s all about horror movies and science fiction movies. I was wondering when you had your first epiphany, when you realised that this is not what cinema is about?
Well, when I got a bit older, because this was when I was a kid … I forget about this, because my mom, on Saturdays, would go shopping, or to see a friend, and she would leave me at this one movie theater for the afternoon, where I could see a double feature. It was always these monster movies, Attack of the Crab Monsters, this kind of thing. I saw all of those in a theater, with a lot of other kids throwing gum at each other, and all kinds of shenanigans. That’s true. I thought that’s what all movies were. Then, we had a thing called Million Dollar Movie on TV. They showed the same movie four days in a row, in the afternoon. Then, I started seeing some war movies, and some other kinds of movies. Maybe an Audrey Hepburn movie. Then, I thought, ‘Oh, yeah. They don’t always have monsters.’
When did you realise that there was a director there?
Probably not until I was a teenager. I lost my mom a year ago, but she told me a few years ago, ‘It’s something very strange. When you were about six years old, you were watching a show on TV called Combat,’ which was a war show. She said, ‘You came to me and said, ‘Mom, why do the Germans in this show speak in English? Aren’t they German?’’ She said, ‘Well, yes, they are, but if they spoke German, you wouldn’t understand them.’ I said, ‘Yeah, but the American guys in the show, why would they understand them?’ ‘Well, then you wouldn’t understand the story.’ She said it was interesting that I was curious about that.
Could you say something about working with Bill Murray?
Well, he’s in Coffee and Cigarettes, Broken Flowers, Limits of Control. I love Bill Murray. I love him as a person. I love working with him. I love his presence. As an actor, what I love is his humanness. He’s so human. He can be very subtle. He’s known for being big, crazy Bill Murray. He’s a very wonderful actor. He can go any range you want. I just love being around Bill. I tell you, when we started editing the film, Affonso Gonçalves, the editor, and I … I’m in the editing room every day, I’m not a remote editor guy. First day of editing, I said, ‘Fonzy, here’s what we’re going to do. After we’ve gone through every take of everything we’ve shot,’ which took one month, and writing down what we liked in each take, then I said, ‘Now, we’ve done that. We’re going to start the film, and we’re going to think of Cliff Robertson as the center of our film. We’re going to first cut the scenes in order of Ronny and Cliff, and then Ronny, Mindy, and Cliff. Once we have all our cop scenes, we’re going to just string those together. Don’t worry about what goes in between. Don’t worry about the story, but we really want Cliff Robertson as a human heart to the film.’ I don’t want that evident when you see the film, but it was a guide for me, for us, while cutting it. I don’t know if that makes sense, but it’s because of Bill. It’s because in real life, Bill is very empathetic, observant, and sensitive to what other people are doing.
When we were shooting Broken Flowers, there were times I had to go and get him, because he’s helping some old people put their luggage in a car that’s half a block away, but he noticed. He’s always so generous, so sweet. There are mythological Bill Murray sightings that are real, where someone says, ‘I went in my kitchen, and Bill Murray was washing my dishes.’ I’m like, ‘Well, do you know Bill Murray?’ ‘No.’ ‘How did he get there?’ ‘I don’t know.’ ‘What did he say?’ ‘He said, ‘Oh, hi. I saw you had some dirty dishes. I thought I’d give you a hand here.’ These are true things about Bill Murray.
The Star Wars joke in the film… you haven’t watched Star Wars, have you?
No. I’m going to my grave not seeing it. I don’t want to ever see Star Wars, I know everything about Star Wars already? Why do I know R2-D2? Why do I know Princess Leia? Why do I know Luke Skywalker and Darth Vader? Why do I know that? I’ve never seen Star Wars, but it’s in my consciousness. Like, ‘Okay, man. That’s it. I don’t want you in my brain any more than that.’
The prop person, Jeff Butcher, our property master, said, ‘I got this car… When she gives him the keys, what do you think of a Star Wars thing on the key chain?’ I said, ‘That’s hilarious. Is it one of Kylo Ren’s ships or something?’ It’s like, ‘Yeah.’ I said, ‘Okay, cool.’ Then, Star Wars wouldn’t allow it. We asked them, and they’re like, ‘No, no, no, no. That’s merchandising.’ Adam loved the joke, too. Adam has a very funny, dry sense of humour as a person. Then, Adam says, ‘What do you mean, we can’t do it?’ I said, ‘Well, Star Wars said no.’ He said, ‘Well, let me make a few calls.’ Then, we got the word back, ‘Yeah, you can do it.’ I got to say that JJ Abrams was very nice to us throughout, because he tried to get Adam later, and give us more time, but he could not. He personally did try, was very nice to us.
Do you find it amusing to sometimes read what we film critics read into your films, including the Trump stuff with this one?
I’ve heard too much of this Trump thing, I don’t give a shit about Trump. That’s just not my response to that, it’s to the world. Trump is one of many people with no empathy, that are narcissists that are in power all over the planet. The only pointed thing, of course, is the hat. That’s a pointed, blatant thing. To say the film’s about Trump is really insulting. As far as what critics say, what I love the most are people that hate the film I make. I want to read it instantly. The most negative things, I love. The things in between, I can’t read because it’s too disturbing. The things where they like the film a lot, I don’t want to read, because I don’t want to get my ego involved. The really nasty ones, I really love, because… I spent years on each film. They’re like my children. If you hate them, I’m really curious why, because I have to have some love for them. I’m interested. Why did you hate it so much?
Why don’t you go back watching your old films?
Why should I? I spent several years making them. They’re done. I can’t change them. I don’t want to sit there looking at what I did before. It’s over. It’s like – not to compare myself, but somebody in an interview asked Bob Dylan, do you listen to your records? He said, why would I do that? I already heard them when I recorded it. I play them live. Okay, I might hear it then. I don’t want to listen to the fucking records. It’s past. It’s gone. We only have the present, and we can think about new things. Wallowing in the old ones, good or bad, it’s not my thing. I’m not into nostalgia, or looking backwards.
There’s a lot of environmental commentary going on in the film.
Well, I think that’s the most grave thing facing human survival. It’s just obvious. The idea of ignoring it, or not addressing it, is very concerning. My empathy, my heart goes to the young people, the Sunrise Movement, the Extinction Rebellion people. These are people who are involved in civil disobedience. They’re mostly young people, often teenagers, that say, ‘This is our world. Why is it being destroyed? Why are you doing nothing?’ I’m one of the guilty people. I drive a car with fossil fuel. I fly in airplanes. I have a credit card. I got plastic bottled water. I’m making a silly zombie movie. I’m not an activist. I respect and admire those who are, especially the young people with the strength and courage to stand up. The biggest crisis for us now, is the lack of human empathy, especially among people who are leaders … We have corporate greed controlling everything. We have leaders that are not empathetic. The result is a dying planet.
I don’t know which is the real crisis, the lack of empathy or the ecological crisis that we’re in, which is really dramatic. They say if we don’t start right now, in 12 years, 1.5 degrees rises in temperature. You know what that means? The end of species that we know, the end of our ecosystem. No insects, no food. 12 years. What? Wow. Well, let’s watch TV and see what Trump did today. I don’t give a shit about Trump. He’s a front man. He’s a reality TV show guy, that the overlords put out there. It works really well. He’s a professional liar, just a buffoon, fuck Trump.
If this is a disease that you are showing in the film, is there any cure?
Well, yes, there’s hope. We still have time. We still have time to try to reverse this disaster, this pending crisis, but we’re not really doing it. I get scared. The other thing is, I have to say… It’s in the film because what RZA says in the film, ‘The world is perfect. Appreciate the details.’ When I get deeply depressed and disgusted by my disappointment in human behaviour, I stop and I think. I practice Tai Chi, and some forms of meditation. I stop myself, and at the end of that, I’m so thankful to have a consciousness to be here, on a little tiny planet in the universe, with a diversity of amazing, incredible things on it. In the timeline of the universe, life on earth is probably that little thing. Even if we fuck it all up, we still have this right now. If you stop each day, and just be thankful that you have a body, that you have a mind, that you can feel this breeze, and feel the water down your throat. There’s hope in that.
I don’t think The Dead Don’t Die is a fatalistic statement, as maybe some people read it as. I think it’s a comedy with a lot of darkness and some ridiculousness. I hope it’s funny. I think that it’s a comedy.
Did you enjoy playing with all the visual effects side of things, blowing up heads?
Well, those are all post production. I wouldn’t say I enjoyed it. It was very complicated. We had a very short shoot, and not enough budget for the film. This was a really stressful, difficult film to make. Halfway through the shoot, I got pneumonia. The doctor came and said, ‘We’re taking the guy to the hospital.’ ‘No, you’re not. I’ve got to work 15 hours a day, man. I don’t go to no hospital. I’m working.’ He was like, ‘Well, you’re going to fuck yourself up.’ We’re shooting. It’s 90 degrees, I got three coats on, and I’m shivering. It was really a rough go, making this film.
How long did the illness last?
About a week or so. Then, it subsided. It could’ve got worse and gone the other way. My crew and my people were very helpful and careful with me. They didn’t say, ‘Okay, we’ve got to go home.’ They couldn’t. We had to shoot Adam Driver in three weeks. He had to go to Star Wars. He’s in two-thirds of the film. It was intense. It rained every day. There’s no rain in the film, so we’d have to stop and wait, and lose more time. Aww man, it was the hardest film I’ve ever made, even more than Dead Man, which was very hard, but I was half my age. I had more resilience, in a way. It was rough. The effects just added to it, but the effects were really also very fun in post. These people from Sweden, and New York, they are so cool, man. They did things I didn’t even ask them to. We ran out of money to pay them, at some point, and they’re like, ‘Well, we have started. We will finish.’ They were like soldiers, and great artists, too. I love them.
You mentioned, before that you didn’t like zombies, do you love them now?
I hate them more now. I am so sick of them. I am sick of fucking zombies. I’ve been working on this for two years, every day. I’m so tired of damn zombies, but I still keep seeing them. Everywhere I go, I’m seeing them. They’re fucking everywhere.
Do you hate the way that we’re all like that with our phones now?
Yes. I’m sick of walking in New York City, and I can’t get through the phone zombies. They don’t even know other people are there. They are, like, zombified.
I have had someone walk right up to me with a phone. As soon as they got in front of me, I say, ‘Wake the fuck up!’ They’re like, ‘Well, what a rude man.’ I’m sick of them. The politics, too. I’m sick of those zombies, too.
The Dead Don’t Die is in cinemas September 26, 2019
Read our The Dead Don’t Die review
Read our interview with Jarmusch about the music and musicians in the film.
Photo Credits: Cannes Photos © oliviervigerie
